This weekend at the CMU Workshop, in the ministers’ forum, we had a discussion about “Social Justice”. We talked about the current movement that seems to focus on social justice without an eternal purpose. It got me to thinking and reading. The campus ministry I led for almost twelve years held a “Welcome Back Picnic” every year where the whole church would turn out to help. It always accomplished two things. We fed over 600 students and we gained a good reputation with the students and the university. Those two things were good and I am glad we accomplished them…But I want you to know: That is NOT why we did it! We always had an eternal purpose in mind. All of our functions, events, programs were measured against this one goal:
To reach the lost for Jesus Christ!
Why? Consider the last thing Jesus said before He ascended into Heaven: “Go into all the world and feed the hungry” or “go into all the world and take care of their physical needs” or “go into all the world and love them”. Right?
NO! He said: “…Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you…”
If that is not what we are about then we are nothing more than a glorified social club. Jesus came to this earth to provide a pathway to the Father. He died on a cruel cross to do just that. And He established His Church here on earth to do one thing:
Show lost people the way to the Father!
Now, I know there is a mindset that says; Lynn, even Jesus had compassion on people and healed them and fed them. And that is true – but I think if you look closely at those same places where Jesus fed and healed you will see His real focus. For example, Let’s look at Mark 6:30-44
The apostles gathered around Jesus and reported to him all they had done and taught. Then, because so many people were coming and going that they did not even have a chance to eat, he said to them, “Come with me by yourselves to a quiet place and get some rest.”
So they went away by themselves in a boat to a solitary place. But many who saw them leaving recognized them and ran on foot from all the towns and got there ahead of them. When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, he had compassion on them, because they were like sheep without a shepherd. So he began teaching them many things.
By this time it was late in the day, so his disciples came to him. “This is a remote place,” they said, “and it’s already very late. Send the people away so they can go to the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.” But he answered, “You give them something to eat.”
They said to him, “That would take eight months of a man’s wages! Are we to go and spend that much on bread and give it to them to eat?”
”How many loaves do you have?” he asked. “Go and see.” When they found out, they said, “Five-and two fish.”
Then Jesus directed them to have all the people sit down in groups on the green grass. So they sat down in groups of hundreds and fifties. Taking the five loaves and the two fish and looking up to heaven, he gave thanks and broke the loaves. Then he gave them to his disciples to set before the people. He also divided the two fish among them all. They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of the men who had eaten was five thousand. (from New International Version)
The Apostles have returned from their time out (You will remember that Jesus had sent them out to preach repentance, drive out demons, and heal the sick. Mark 6:12 & 13.) So here they are with Jesus, telling Him all about it and Jesus takes them out in a boat to get away from the crowds and get some rest. So here is a “Snapshot”: Jesus and His apostles are in a boat landing ashore and Jesus see’s the crowd that has run ahead to catch them. Look at verse 34 “When Jesus landed and saw a large crowd, He had compassion on them,” Hold it right there, This is real important! It says: “He had compassion on them”. The Greek seems to mean that it is “to be moved to the point of pain” or “to have your heart hurt for them”. Jesus see’s these people and His heart Hurts! But Why? What was it about that crowd that generated such “compassion” from our savior? I used to think that Jesus looked at these people and had compassion because they were hungry and poor…etc. But as I looked closer I saw what the verse was saying; “because they were like sheep without a shepherd”. I looked at that and asked myself; What are sheep without a shepherd? Hungry? No, sheep will find food. Their physical needs were not the problem. They were lost! And worse, they were in danger of being devoured!
But – didn’t they have shepherds (the Pharisees)? Well – yes…but they were the ones devouring them. And that’s the very problem we have going on all around us today. People are being led by shepherds who have invented a religion to suit their own desires and they are devouring the flock. They are in desperate need of someone to look on them with “compassion” and that needs to be us! It should hurt us to the point that we are driven to do something. But what? Well, look at what Jesus did when He was moved with compassion. (the end of verse 34) “So HE began teaching them…”
Now the story is going to go further and show His compassion for their physical needs as well by feeding them. But if you focus on the miracle you will miss what Jesus knew their deepest need was. Today, our compassion leads us to first feed them or take care of some physical need and rarely get around to their Spiritual need (and that’s just plain backwards). Jesus knew that their greatest need was God’s Word! Not food. Yes it is true Jesus did go ahead and feed them and that is a neat story: The disciples say: Hey, these people need something to eat…send them home. But look how Jesus answers them; “You give them something to eat.” You see, Jesus knew the food part was easy! Understand, to us it’s a miracle! But to Jesus, It’s just food…it’s no big deal.
The big deal to Jesus was the teaching He gave them. So here’s my point:
The Spiritual needs are more important than the physical needs!
Social justice without an eternal purpose is just self gratification…and that’s just sick.
Followers of Jesus are called to take care of the poor and outcast, period. There’s no way to argue against that, and it is sinful and unfaithful if that aspect of following Jesus is neglected. It is characteristic of Christ-followers to be concerned with taking care of others regardless of their need.
That being said, I do not believe taking care of the poor and the outcast is the mission of the church. I believe the mission of the church is the Great Commission – to call others under the lordship of Jesus thereby saving them from sin and death. This is why Jesus died on the cross.
I agree with you in that Jesus had eternal purposes in mind in His teaching and service. Obviously He made people’s lives better here on earth – this was characteristic of Him. But that was NOT His mission – His mission was to save people from their sins … in fact, that’s what His name means (“the Lord saves”).
Christ-followers do a disservice to the world when they confuse a kingdom characteristic (taking care of the poor and outcast resulting in temporal relief) with the kingdom mission (saving people from sin and death resulting in eternal salvation).
Thank you for posting this – I have a feeling what you’re touching on will make up the heart of an important discussion to come in future years.
Its important to not confuse a way to serve people with the reason we are serving them!
Show them Jesus and they won’t be hungry anymore!
Thirty-three years Jesus watched social injustice on this earth through physical eyes. Three years Jesus ministered in the flesh with power. Forever He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. If He only possessed the physical eyes and gave the example He gave, I can presume that filling bellies or healing diseases from that vantage point was not getting the job done of solving the earth’s most agregious ‘social’ injustice–the death sentence on mankind and the separation of man to His Holy Creator. He went to the cross to solve it all. He had miraculous power to save mankind from our self-inflicted injustices and his choice was the cross. My choice is the cross–however and whenever through His Empowerment I can get that done!
Amen Brother! I LOVED THIS! Jesus is here for the spiritual needs. What is worse to feed a man of his physical body and leave his eternal soul starving? Jesus is the well for people like us to never thirst again. Besides if someone is fed spiritual they can not only “feed” themselves through Christ, they can help others not go hungry eternally too! Well said Lynn!
Hi Lynn,
I agree with Wes. Clearly, Jesus had a higher purpose behind his miracles. Even though he wanted to heal paralytics and feed people—because he loved them and he had the power—his main goal was to make the way for salvation. He also commanded us to care about the physical needs of people while preaching the gospel to all creation.
But in campus ministry, we are in an atmosphere that is extremely political, to the point where if you’re NOT political, a finger is pointed at you for your apathy. (Or, if that’s the direction a campus minister decides to go, they can show them how to be heavenly minded.) I think it’s important for students to know that Christians—even if they’re also conservatives—believe that it’s our job based on Scripture to meet people’s physical needs, and that we do it. You know the quote, “People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care”—people need to see us caring before they will listen to our message.
So I do think that these mission trips have value. But for me as a Christian, it is impossible for me to remove the eternal mindset from it—SOMEONE there thinks that Christians are selfish jerks. It’s inevitable. But as a pragmatist, I don’t think I would understand doing things just to make me feel good about myself in he first place, even if I wasn’t a Christian…that’s something that makes me scratch my head…why wouldn’t you just help without making a big deal about it?
Anyway, I agree with you in that people are seriously missing the point if they think they’re loving somebody without giving them spiritual food. But then, they’re probably missing the point in the first place if their goal is to only look like they’re helping, and I try to be careful of that, too.
We have the hope that social injustice will END when Jesus comes back. If we REALLY wanted social justice, wouldn’t we share that with people?? Christians are for social justice in the highest form: Jesus as King!
Thank you for your blog!
I sometimes miss His main purpose and instead focus on the “oh la la, what a miracle” over the fact that Jesus was providing spiritual needs over physical needs.
Miracles in themselves were formed to feed the spiritual needs. The miracles were performed to prove that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, give glory to God, and more.
Through those proofs their/our spiritual needs are met- the need to be with the Father (our Creator), to grow closer with Him and His true peace, and more.
Over and over again, we see in the gospel how much Jesus was concerned about the spiritual needs more over the physical/emotional needs. Look at the lady at the well, the paralytic man, and more.
(Luke 5:17-26) For the paralytic man, Jesus said “which is easier: to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven,’ or to say, ‘Get up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins…” He said to the paralyzed man, “I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home. “” (Luke 5:22-24)
He said “but that you may now that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sings… “get up, take your mat and go home.”
Even that miracle was not for physical healing but ultimately for spiritual purposes.
Even people back then missed the main purpose of that miracle.
vs 26 “They were filled with awe and said, “We have seen remarkable things today’ ”
“SEEN”
The bigger miracle was not the healing (physical need) but the forgiveness of sins, and more (spiritual need)
I think we, as humans, find it easier to focus on the physical needs of others because it is very visible, many times easier to fix, and creates a temporary “I did something good” feeling.
In this day and age, people are all about serving and the credit goes to the individual. But if their main goal is to take care of the spiritual needs, people will be reminded that all glory and praise goes to the Father!
That is a strange concept for the world!
Taking care of physical needs means we have less persecution, less pain, less of being dangerous.
Spiritual matters are scary and taking care of the physical distract us from the spiritual warfare.
But let us not take the easy way but the road that is Dangerous, soul-saving warfare road. Bring on the war, for the battle is not mine but the Lord’s! (2 Chron 20:15-17)
Christians are in a real danger of making themselves irrelevant if we spend all of our time focusing on being likable and having a “spread the gospel and use words if necessary” attitude. Jesus used words, we are going to have to as well.
I just thought of a great example of this in the Bible: In Exodus, when God gets Israel out of slavery in Egypt. Did he just go “You are no longer slaves! Now it is time to figure out life on your own. Good Luck your in the middle east?”
No, he brought them into the desert and started a relationship with them; he made them his people.
…and then he fed them with food from the sky. Jesus said what we do for “the least of these” that we do for him. He said when we clothe them, feed them, and put a roof over their heads, then we are really doing these things for Him. He said that if we neglect them that we are neglecting Him and he will hold us accountable for this at judgement. Sounds like an eternal purpose to me.
I don’t think it’s an either or Phil. I think we should feed them and provide for them. I just think we should tell them why. And when we don’t I think we are being selfish.
Phil – I think you’ve missed the point, brother.
You are sooo right! I am in my civic engagement class and that is all they talk about. Serving the community without any purpose at all…. O wait, head fake, it is just about you and half of them do not really care …. I have been thinking the same thing though. We have to band together and help others like first church.
You cannot have an “eteral purpose” with temporal things. The need for physical food, clothing, meds, etc. will pass. The human “soul” or “spirit” will live eternally. Which is more important?
Certainly we should do “good works” simply to glorify the Father(Matt. 5:13-16), which means we should not neglect the poor, the hungry, the homeless or any sub-set of humanity. We cannot minister in a way that people will avoid the first death (Heb. 9:27), but we can minister in a way that people can avoid the “second death” (Rev. 2:11). Jesus saves (John 14:6; Acts 4:12).
Thank all of you for your response. I think this is an important discussion for the times we are in. I pray more will consider eternal purpose as we move to an increase in Social Justice.
There is no doubt that the Lordship of Jesus is the ultimate framework under which we serve others. All of our efforts to serve others’ material needs will never be enough. The one eternal thing we can do is reveal to others that Jesus is king. It is also true that many Christian groups that have a large focus on social justice tend to neglect the spreading of the Gospel. Some “churches” even demote the Gospel and consider it just another piece of wisdom among many. However, I hate to see anything that seems to downplay the need for Christians to pursue social justice.
Just as it is a bad idea to try to minister to college students by providing them free alcohol, it is a bad idea to minister to Americans by downplaying social justice. Here in America, we love our things, and we are just dying for a reason to hold on to all of them. We would like to think we can be embarrassingly wealthy while others quite near to us are starving and still be good Christians. “After all, our main purpose is spreading the Gospel, right? This world is just going to pass away.” Lynn, I know that you are not saying this at all, but I see how badly many Christians in the West want to cling to this idea. Ironically, these same Christians who want to ignore others’ material needs to focus on spiritual needs are often those who will not go out on a limb to spread the Gospel either.
Furthermore, the Gospels show that caring for the poor and downtrodden is an essential component of being under the Lordship of Jesus. It’s ludicrous to think you can have one without the other. Often when people preach that telling people about Jesus is more important than providing for their needs, they make it sound like you should only provide for someone’s needs in order to make them like Jesus. We should be providing for people out of love for them (which is also why we teach them about Jesus)! Luke 16:19-24 and Matt 25:31-46 are clear examples of how eternally important it is to care for people in a material way. Also, such a severe separation of body and soul that is presupposed by the idea that we can minister to someone’s soul but not his or her body is a concept foreign to first century Palestinian Judaism (and most likely to Jesus and his disciples). We are both soul and body, and we know that our bodies are important because God created them good, he will resurrect them when Christ returns, and because Jesus and his apostles give us specific instructions about how to treat them. It also follows that part of loving someone is caring for both his or her body and soul. Where the Gospel goes, social justice follows immediately behind.
Let me be clear: I am not accusing you of ignoring the importance of social justice, I am just commenting on how it can be dangerously downplayed. Like I said above, American Christians often downplay social justice in order to make their lives more comfortable, just as other American Christians downplay the exclusive truth of the Gospel in order to feel more comfortable in a postmodern world. As a result, here I am making this post. I always find myself either broadcasting to one group that social justice most certainly comes with spreading the Gospel, or broadcasting to another group that their social justice measures are a short-lived band-aid on a gaping wound if they are not backed by sharing the truth of the Gospel.
To conclude, thanks for the post, Lynn.
Thank you Daniel and well said. I agree with everything you wrote. Every time I get into a discussion about this it leads to an either or debate
I agree that you should have both going on at all times. One without the other is just pleasing us.
Dan, get a blog.. i would read it. your response to this post is perfect, well said and humbling. far better than anything i had to say.
I like how Randy Alcorn deals with the topic of meeting people’s spiritual & physical needs, in his book Why Pro-Life?
On page 108, he write, “A seminary student at my church told me something I’ve often heard in one form or another: “Issues like abortion are just a distraction from the main thing.” “What’s the main thing?” I asked. “The Great Commission,” he said. “Winning people to Christ. That’s what we’re supposed to do. Everything else is a distraction.”
He was referring to Christ’s words in Matthew 28:19-20. Was he right? Is pro-life a distraction from the Great Commission…or is it part of it?
We need to consider three perspectives to understand the relationship between pro-life efforts and the Great Commission.
First, the Great Commission is a central command, but Jesus labeled another command the greatest. The Great Commission is really just an extension of the command to love God and our neighbors.
Second, even if all there was to the Great commission was evangelism, standing up for those whose lives are endangered would qualify because it opens significant doors for evangelism.
Third, in His Great Commission, Jesus didn’t tell us only to evangelize. He told us to be “teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you” (Mt. 28:20). He didn’t just say teaching them to believe; He said teaching them to obey.
Jesus commands us to have compassion and to take sacrificial action for the weak and needy. So that’s part of “everything I have commanded you.” And if we fail to obey that part, and fail to teach others to obey it, we are not fulfilling the Great Commission.
If the church doesn’t intervene for unborn children and their mothers, and if we don’t teach our people to help them, then we fail to fulfill the Great Commission.
Churches are to be the backbone of God’s work for the needy. If your church isn’t doing enough for the unborn and their mothers, then perhaps God is calling you to step forward and help your church and its leaders take on this vital ministry.”
Make sense to me.
John 15 1-8
1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, proving yourselves to be my disciples.
Everyone want to interpret what the fruit is that Jesus expects his disciples to produce. This is a parable that Jesus does not interpret. I personally believe the reason he dose not interpret this parable, is because he expects the hearers to understand what he is talking about. He is talking to Jews that memorized the “Old Testament.” They knew it inside and out. Our problem is, we don’t know Scripture. I don’t believe the fruit Jesus expects his disciples to produce is more disciples. I believe he is referring to Isaiah 5
1 I will sing for the one I love
a song about his vineyard:
My loved one had a vineyard
on a fertile hillside.
2 He dug it up and cleared it of stones
and planted it with the choicest vines.
He built a watchtower in it
and cut out a winepress as well.
Then he looked for a crop of good grapes,
but it yielded only bad fruit.
3 “Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and people of Judah,
The fruit that Jesus’ disciples will produce, is caring for the poor and oppressed and restoring justice to the innocent that are slain unjustly. If Jesus’ disciples don’t do this then they are worthless disciples and he has no use for them except to cast them into the fire. ( Jesus’ words not mine…re-read John 15.)
If we are doing this most basic and elementary teaching (caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts) then of course, we will make disciples of all the nations. To end with a cliqhe: “People do not care how much we know, until they know how much we care.”
judge between me and my vineyard.
4 What more could have been done for my vineyard
than I have done for it?
When I looked for good grapes,
why did it yield only bad?
5 Now I will tell you
what I am going to do to my vineyard:
I will take away its hedge,
and it will be destroyed;
I will break down its wall,
and it will be trampled.
6 I will make it a wasteland,
neither pruned nor cultivated,
and briers and thorns will grow there.
I will command the clouds
not to rain on it.”
7 The vineyard of the LORD Almighty
is the nation of Israel,
and the people of Judah
are the vines he delighted in.
And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed;
for righteousness, but heard cries of distress.
Bud you said; “If we are doing this most basic and elementary teaching (caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts) then of course, we will make disciples of all the nations.”
while I would like to agree with you and wish that to be true I cannot. I have seen this approach many times in the Church and when it is NOT followed up with telling them about “Living water” it seldom makes disciples. All it seems to do is give us a false feeling of self-worth.
But to be clear, I do believe we are to care for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcast. But it must include sharing with them WHY. Otherwise it’s just self-gratification…and that’s just sick
Well find me the Scripture that states “we are to care for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcast. But it must include sharing with them WHY. Otherwise it’s just self-gratification…and that’s just sick.”
Actually Scripture states just the opposite we should love without expecting anything in return just like our Father…”He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matthew 5: 45-48
In fact Scriptures states that self-gratification should be the motivation because this basic elementary teaching (caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts) is so difficult. “Truly I tell you, anyone who gives you a cup of water in my name because you belong to the Messiah will certainly not lose their reward.” Mark 9:41. Biblical teaching on rewards implies that we do something that is difficult precisely for self gratification…i.e so we will be rewarded by God.
Once again, If we are doing this most basic and elementary teaching (caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts) then of course, we will make disciples of all the nations. As we are caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts naturally some (not all) will ask us why are we doing this? why do we care so much? and then we will be able to give our response and share about our Lord our Master…Jesus and then disciple them to be disciples that do what we do… care for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts…and they will be asked the same questions (by some, not all) and they will have the opportunity to share.
We are to do this most basic and elementary teaching (caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts) even if we disciple no one. In fact, Jesus states in John 15 that we will be persecuted and we will be hated if we do this. I love what Tyler wrote, (he gets it!)
“Jesus commands us to have compassion and to take sacrificial action for the weak and needy. So that’s part of “everything I have commanded you.” And if we fail to obey that part, and fail to teach others to obey it, we are not fulfilling the Great Commission.
If the church doesn’t intervene for unborn children and their mothers, and if we don’t teach our people to help them, then we fail to fulfill the Great Commission.”
Trust me, if you take a public stand for our pre-born neighbors, you will be hated, persecuted, jailed,and possibly killed. You may not even disciple one person or save one baby, but we must do it anyway and be motivated (self-gratified) by the fact that we will be rewarded by God if we do this. We should care for these people, because God cares about them, in this way, (caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts), we should “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”
Hi Bud,
In the 1st post, you said:
“Everyone want to interpret what the fruit is that Jesus expects his disciples to produce. This is a parable that Jesus does not interpret. I personally believe the reason he dose not interpret this parable, is because he expects the hearers to understand what he is talking about. He is talking to Jews that memorized the “Old Testament.” They knew it inside and out.”
The problem was the Pharisees and some other Jewish people distorting and adding on to the laws they knew so well. Jesus may not have interpreted this like he did the parable of the sower, but he did mention in
John 15:16-17:
” You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—FRUIT THAT WILL LAST—and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you. 17 This is my command: Love each other.”
He wanted them to bear fruit that will last!. We get some definition of fruit from Galtians 5:22-25:
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
This is the fruit we are suppose to show since as Christians, the Holy Spirit is in us.
You also said: “In fact Scriptures states that self-gratification should be the motivation because this basic elementary teaching (caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts) is so difficult.”
Galatians 5:26 says we should not become conceited, provoking or envying each other, which will come if you do things out of self gratification. I don’t think scripture is saying self-gratification is the motivation. It clearly says in Mark 9:41 you will not lose your reward, not why you should do it.
I thought we were suppose to love people, like the poor, not do it to try to earn God’s love and justification! He alreay loves us and justified us! We cannot earn it! Instead, we serve because God commanded us to and because he loved us and we want to show people what true love from our Father really does!
Also you said”
“As we are caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts naturally some (not all) will ask us why are we doing this? why do we care so much?”
Yes some will naturally, but not all. I’ve been a part of feeding about a thousand students on campus a couple of times. Very few actually ask why they are getting free food. The numbers may change when feeding poor or homeless, but the fact remains not all will ask. Why not be proactive and let them know? So all will know, not just some of the curious people. Then if they reject the message, it’s on them. We leave no chance for the people we are serving to not know about God.
Bud, we will just have to agree to disagree on one point. I do not believe serving the poor…etc, should be about self-gradification. We are to die to self. That is the very essence of the Gospel.
You wrote: “Once again, If we are doing this most basic and elementary teaching (caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts) then of course, we will make disciples of all the nations. As we are caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts naturally some (not all) will ask us why are we doing this? why do we care so much? and then we will be able to give our response and share about our Lord our Master…Jesus and then disciple them to be disciples that do what we do… care for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts…and they will be asked the same questions (by some, not all) and they will have the opportunity to share”.
There is where I find agreement with you. I believe, as you do, that we should care for the poor…etc. But it just does not end there. God came to “save the world” for eternity not just take care of their earthly needs here.
Well I used the parable if the vine and the interpretation of it from Isaiah to establish my point that possibly God is expecting his people to deal with injustice and help the cries of the oppressed. If God’s people will not do this most basic teaching, then according to Jesus, we are worthless disciples and quite possibly not disciples at all and simply playing religious games like the Pharisees.
Also, a teaching on rewards may be in order I recommend “A Life God Rewards”, by Bruce Wilkinson
I agree that discipleship/evangelism is important…However, Paul wasn’t too concerned how many people he converted though.1 Cor. 1:14-16 “I thank God that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15 so no one can say that you were baptized in my name. 16 (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don’t remember if I baptized anyone else.)”
Our ministry may not be judged by how many people we convert. However, Jesus clearly states that we WILL BE JUDGED based on how we fulfilled the most basic and elementary teaching (caring for the poor, homeless, oppressed, orphaned, outcasts)
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ 37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’ 40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. 41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ 44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’ 45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’ 46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Matthew 25: 31-46
Bud, Your replys seem to leave the impression that you think most of us don’t think we should be about Social justice. I have re-read every post and I think all of them think we are to be about Social Justice. Something seems amiss here…LOL
Bud,
First of all, I’m going to assert that taking care of the poor and downtrodden is extremely important for Christians. God has commanded us to do so, and our Lord has urged us to have love above all else, and part of loving someone is caring for them physically. Caring for the needy is a characteristic of God’s kingdom people, so if we don’t have that characteristic, we need to question whether we are truly disciples of the Lord Jesus. I do believe we will be judged for our actions toward the needy.
However, you have completely misused that passage in 1 Cor. You have taken it out of context. It is ludicrous to assert that Paul wasn’t concerned about how many people he converted. Paul sacrificed his physical well-being and most likely his own life to spread the Gospel! He was beaten and imprisoned on behalf of the Gospel. He collected money from the churches for the poor in Jerusalem because it is the duty of the churches to care for those in need. However, he traveled the known world in the first place in order to seek and save the lost. He called himself the apostle to the Gentiles because it was his central purpose to evangelize to the Gentiles, not because he was supposed to care for their physical needs (though I’m sure he did so as much as he could). At the beginning of Romans 9 Paul forcefully illustrates how much he cares about the salvation of others. He proclaims that he would become cut off from Christ and accursed if it would lead to the salvation of his people (the Jews).
Bud, I understand that you are trying to emphasize the importance of social justice. And it is important! However, you cannot downplay the importance of spreading the Gospel in order to highlight other things that the church should be doing. As we spread the Gospel, we should care for people’s spiritual and physical needs. And as those in need accept the Gospel and have their needs met, they will also go forth to spread the Gospel and care for others in need both spiritually and physically. Ideally, social justice will spread with the Gospel, with the spread of the Kingdom of God. If we only address the physical needs of others, how will they hear the call of Christ to give food to the hungry and clothing to the naked? Let us spread the call of Christ, and justice will flow behind.
This is a great discussion. Thanks Lynn. I think in a lot of conversations like this, people are often in agreement of the main points, but it sometimes feels like they’re not when they each emphasis their point of view.
To reference Randy Alcorn again, I see a similarity between the physical/spiritual needs conversation and his book, ‘The Grace & Truth Paradox.’ In that book, Alcorn speaks of the importance of balancing both. A great example of Jesus balancing grace and truth is found in the story of the woman caught in adultery.
Grace without truth leads to relativism. Truth without grace leads to legalism. Alcorn proposes that people are prone to emphasis one more than the other. He challenges truth-oriented people to go out of their way to extend grace; and he challenges grace-oriented people to go out of their way to share truth.
I think this applies to our conversion about meeting people’s spiritual needs and physical needs. We should do both, like Jesus did; not one at the expense of the other.
Similarly, I propose that people are prone to emphasis one more naturally than the other. Thus, spiritual needs-oriented people need to go out of their way to meet people’s physical needs; and physical needs-oriented people need to go out of their way to meet people’s spiritual needs.
P.S. Speaking of Randy Alcorn and eternal rewards (as Bud mentioned), Alcorn wrote a great book entitled, ‘The Law of Rewards.’ It’s fantastic! Can you tell I’m a Randy Alcorn fan? Check out his website: http://www.epm.org.
Maybe for me it is just perspective…For me, I see it as: Christians should deal with whatever social injustice is prevalent in our society, and then as we are serving and ministering to the least of these, then the proclamation of the gospel will naturally flow. I also think our ministries should not be numbers oriented, but service oriented. Let us also not focus on converting people to our “Church,” but to Jesus. Thanks for bearing with me as I infiltrated this blog and I will now bow out.
Thanks Bud for a lively discussion. One point : ministries across this country are dying out and closing because they are not focused on reaching the lost. It just does not happen naturally. It happens as a result of focus. The most evangelictic ministries I know are the same one’s I know that are effective at social justice. They can and do go together.
The only ministries that are dying out are the ones that were never focused on Jesus…social justice activist out….btw I am an evangelist as well.
Many blessings!
Hi, Bud. To be honest…these kind of discussions bug me because I can’t see you face to face LOL. Here is one thing I can commend you on…I appreciate how you are focused on serving no matter what and whoever it may be with the basic and elementary teaching as you have described without being “OMG you have to be a Christian right now!” You seem more chill about it, like “Let me get to know people first and make friends etc. one step at a time because God will naturally flow through me and people will see and the conversations will start from there. That’s great! However, I think that we should always help people this way and this way of thinking should be in the back of our minds, but that thinking has to be secondary to saving souls first. I think it can turn out bad when we think “Well…I am going to serve the homeless etc. and if it turns out we start talking about God then great…if not hey I can’t expect anything in return so yea…I think we should look for opportunities to reach out to people because it is an obligation and a privilege Romans 2:16-17 “I am not ashamed of the Gospel because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes…etc. We always need to have this purpose in mind first while we are serving others. Even if a person is at the point of not really wanting to know God…we have to serve them anyway just like you said not expecting anything in return because we have no right or reason to not forgive and do what we are supposed to. Now it get’s tricky here because serving others the basic way you were describing is true in any context and situation…but it is not anything of worth without sharing the Gospel. There are tons of Atheist groups that go to Africa maybe to feed the hungry or to clean and do some work along what seems to be servitude. We as Christians look at that and say…”That is just so they can feel good, they don’t love God or share Jesus, it’s just so they can look good.” Are we Christians doing the same thing when we do not share the Gospel but somehow entertain the thought that oh I’m doing this for God and I don’t have to share anything just yet…God will be happy with me just serving…God wants us to make every opportunity because the days are evil. Our conversations need to be seasoned with salt and we need to share step step not all at once…not saying thats what you were saying. I mentioned that because I think it could be two extremes. One extreme is to not say anything and be content with just serving,which actually is not serving anymore when you take the Gospel out, but it is rather “Hey look at me I am doing this so I can look cool and awesome and self-righteous.” The other extreme is to act “Holier than Though” and try to force someone to commit to God the self-righteous way they think they should, and that reminds me alot of what the Pharisees did. There needs to be a balance. I tell you what…I have picnic in a couple of days to feed USF but to reach out with the Gospel. Will I slam each and every person with how to be a christian and make them uncomfortable? No! But I will share the gospel little by little as I get to know them and tell them oh we as Christians are giving everyone free food to get to know you but also to build relationships and get people closer to God because God is Love and we need to show people Jesus. Now I am so not perfect at this and I fall and sin every day and I forget about this alot but I gotta do it because I was commanded to. Thanks for your view point I respect it. Be Blessed Bud.
Bud, I want to thank you for your comments. I believe it is helpful to have these discussions. I pray you didn’t feel attacked in any way. Many of the people that commented on your post were reached through Campus Ministry and are passonite toward the lost.
I admire your passon and pray God will continue to bless your ministry.
Well I am not talking about not living with urgency, my whole ministry is about urgency and lifting up Jesus and proclaiming the gospel in our communities. I proclaim Jesus pretty much everyday. I try and examine our communities and find the most desperate lost and dying and bring Jesus there with urgency. I deal with sinners who hate me despise me and attack me. I love them anyway I try to balance grace and truth which is a constant struggle. I am a full time minister living off the generosity of others who understand the urgency of my ministry. I proclaimed the gospel yesterday to a new age guru. I presented Jesus as the logos or logic of all reality; how all reality coheres or makes sense philosophically only according to the christian worldview. Nothing makes sense apart from Jesus. I established historically that we can know with certainty that Jesus was the son of God and rose from the dead. Did he fall down and declare Jesus Lord of his life, no…but he did shake my hand and state that he never heard Jesus and Christianity explained this way and our conversation challenged him and he will look more into it. Does this happen everyday?…No but I place myself where I know injustice is taking place and the cries of the oppressed are screaming. To get a better glimpse into my ministry you can check out my blog:
http://prayerandaprolifewitness.blogspot.com/
Love your site and love your work. God is with you mighty warrior.
Bud you said: I don’t believe the fruit Jesus expects his disciples to produce is more disciples.
Wow! But doesn’t that contradict the Great Commision in Matthew 28 God said make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit?
I see your point on practicing that basic and elementary teaching and in order to do this you must love the oppressed etc. and it is very hard to practice without belonging to Christ. But the motivation to do this must be because of saving souls and how can we save unless we speak, how will we speak unless someone sends us, how will the people hear? Discipleship includes firstly saving souls and making them disciples and which is the fruit in addition to the fruit Galatians talks about. The Fruit of the Spirit helps us make disciples because how can we if we are not at peace, patient, kind, humble, loving, having self-control?
There is no either or, it has to be both serving and making disciples. I’m glad you are being active in your ministry.
It is obvious that fruit is not more disciples, because disciples are branches in the parable and Jesus is the vine. Fruit has to be something else. Possibly the fruits of the spirit as mentioned above. I just referenced Isaiah 5 where the fruit God was looking for his people to bear were: restoring justice to the innocent who were being unjustly killed and righteousness that deals with the cries of the oppressed. We are not told in scripture that God will judge us based on how many people we convert or disciple. Jesus does tell us that we will be judged based on how we serve the least of these among us. Matthew 25: 31-46
I’m not saying we don’t fulfill the Great Commission. I’m just offering my insight into how possibly we could go about fulfilling the Great Commission as we are serving and ministering to the least of these among us; showing them the love the God has for them.
Many blessings
where’s my “like” button?
excellent points, bud.
oops… “showing them the love God has for them.” Thanks tulsaoilman and all, great discussion and insight. Keep fighting the good fight and to God be the glory!
Well Bud I will contend that “fruit” is both the Fruit of the Spirit and converts. I believe you won’t have one without the other.
Maybe we have Fruit of the SPIRIT: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. And Fruit of JESUS “the vine”: (parabolically if that is a word spell check begs to differ:) restoring justice to the innocent who are being unjustly killed and righteousness that deals with the cries of the oppressed as interpreted in Isaiah 5:7 (which Jesus expected his Jewish audience to get).
Pondering…
Done pondering…If you have been born of the Spirit, are Spirit filled and the Spirit is dominating your life and not your flesh you will manifest: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.
If you are a disciple of Jesus and he is truly Lord of your life then as his disciple you will manifest that by striving to restore justice to the innocent who are being unjustly killed and righteously deal with the cries of the oppressed…as you are producing all this fruit in your lives and ministry, it will have a lasting and permanent impact on individuals and you will have opportunities to proclaim your master Jesus to these individuals and some will receive him as their Lord.
Social justice activist over and out…for the third and final time…third times the charm…and unless someone keeps addressing me:)
I see what you are saying…but wouldn’t it be biblical that as we are helping the oppressed etc. that we should also focus on saving their souls? When the oppressed see what Christians are doing for them will they not question why and where it is coming from? Even if they didn’t which I bet some won’t should we not make it clear that we are not doing this just because but for God and to get people to know Him? the way that we save the oppressed is obviously going to show we get the idea from God on how to handle it and we have to make it clear that we as Christians are not going to go about social justice in a wordly manner and we will not conform to the world Romans 12:1-2. Wouldn;t we as Christians put our foots down and make it clear that in order to do this the oppressed have to be willing to become Christians as well to get out of where they are? I believe it is a two-way street. the oppressed have to make some decisions too and get up and do something. I remember reading in the Old Testament all the time how God’s people were oppressed all the time by their enemies because they did not love God by following him and obeying him etc. So….they were always stuck. Isn’t it true that if you do not make disciples that we are not producing fruit, because when we do not belong to Christ anyone we talk to won’t here the message either. But when we do belong to Christ…the people we interact with do hear the message and can be saved. The Love of God is to walk like Christ did…and when we read the Gospels…we do exactly what he did…and His purpose was always to save souls in service and whatever else. Great insight Bud. I like talking to you
I want to meet you.
i’m going to be honest.
i’m seriously left wondering what a non-christian who happened to stumble upon this thread would think of all this. i’m hoping none of them do, as they might possibly be left with an awful taste in their mouth about christians as a whole, i fear, based on *some* of these comments.
bud, your comments and points were great, and you put up a good fight… “If you have been born of the Spirit, are Spirit filled and the Spirit is dominating your life and not your flesh you will manifest: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.” — i could not agree with this more. THIS is what is truly important. not “winning” souls and number of converts. tyler, thank you for the randy alcorn references. i especially agree with the grace/truth paradox… i am a grace leaner who needs OFTEN to be kept in check by truth.
melinda, lynn– im sorry, but you have to know as someone who started with your ministry and who is now an outsider looking in, it made me wince to read things like, “Wouldn’t we as Christians put our foots down and make it clear that in order to do this the oppressed have to be willing to become Christians as well to get out of where they are? I believe it is a two-way street. ”
this simply isn’t loving. this simply isn’t Jesus. what non-believer in their right mind would ever respond positively to essentially a message of, “im going to help you but in order for me to do so, you have to become a christian. its a two way street”. I must have missed that in the bible.. the whole “two way street” gig. and quite frankly, they don’t even know they need the “living water”, in many cases have been burned by those supplying the “living water”, and therefore aren’t going to give you the time of day to talk about the “living water” until you can show you offer something other than forcing religion down their throats. (please know this is not an attack.. and truthfully, i used to believe the same as both of you.. well, mostly melinda.. lynn.. ehhhhhh
)
it is us, christians, who are supposed to be the opposite of all that. to love because we were 1st loved. that is the message the hurting world needs to hear. that is the CORE of this thing we call “social justice”. that is Jesus.
respecfully,
j
Well Jen I believe that if a “non-christian” were to stumble on to this he/she might be drawn towards the light. They would see that there are people who care enough to have this discussion. They would see Bud’s heart for hurting people. They would see Tylers heart for Grace. They would see others heart for a lost world needing hope in the darkness.
You speak of what love is but seem to lack the understanding that it is NOT love to withhold “living Water” from them. I’m going to love you by helping your physical needs but not enought to help you with your Spiritual needs? That is NOT Love. No it’s not a numbers game and I think many of us have tried to point that out. The discussion here is not about whether Christians should do Social Justice or give people Living Water. The discussion is about the fact that we should do both. Our job is to “Plant and Water” and allow God to provide the increase. I would never agree with a thinking of;” I will help you but you must become a Christian.” I don’t believe there is a limit to love. I will continue to love even when someone walks away from God. Because “love is never ending”. (Even when they refuse to recieve my love and reject my love and speak evil of me, I still love them).
Somehow this discussion has turned into a debate of one verses the other. But I do not believe that. I believe we must be about both or it’s simply not love. I keep hearing that We must “love like Jesus”, well Jesus warned about Hell more than anyone and yet all I hear is that we should not talk about Hell. Jesus is the one that said; ‘I have come to seek and save the lost”. His Father said He sent His Son to save the world not condem it. Jesus taught that true love was to obey the Father.
Think of this situation; I feed a poor person, I give a poor person water, I help that person out of an addiction. I help them find a job. But I never tell them about Jesus (Don’t worry Bud, I know that’s not what your saying). Now they die and stand before the judge. Do you think they are going to be happy with me? I don’t. And I don’t think Jesus will be happy with that either. I think He will say; Why didn’t you tell them about me?
What Bud is doing with the abortion debate is a perfict example. Is Bud going to stop because people don’t respont well? Is Bud going to stop because people don’t agree with him? Is Bud going to stop because people are turned off by what he is doing? (No he’s not) Why not? Because it’s the truth and millions and millions of unborn babies have no voice. Well, the lost have no voice and someone must speak for them. If not Christians then who?
Well we can at least all be friends on facebook…Just type in the facebook search: Bud Shaver or nybud78@msn.com…yes that’s me the social injustice activist guy with the megaphone:)
OK now I feel dumb…Just click on my name so we can all be friends on facebook
kinda missed my point, but that’s ok. interesting thread nonetheless.
Jen I never meant you have to become a Christian first…may be I didn’t say it right…I have made it clear in my previous comments that there is a balance between making disciples and serving the oppressed. When I said “Wouldn’t we as Christians put our foots down and make it clear that in order to do this the oppressed have to be willing to become Christians as well to get out of where they are? I believe it is a two-way street”, I meant it in the context of…We are helping these people with whatever social injustice is going on or it could be someone we met who is struggling etc…if they are in a life of sin and are stuck in the dumps somewhere yes we have to help them but as we get to know them we gotta talk about Jesus. Please keep in mind that even the oppressed are in the situation that they are in because of their sin if that is the case…everybody is held responsible. If someone does not know God, they go about life the way they see fit and do wrong things because they do not know the right way. if we get to the point of studying with someone and holding them accountable in love to do whats right before God and that means they have to change things…it’s up to them whether they will or not. If they don’t, it is no surprise to me that they are oppressed and stuck because they choose to remain there. We have to do this with gentleness and respect of course and I do things out of respect. I believe God’s wrath is His love. We have a merciful grafeful God who is also wrathful and doesn’t play around when it comes to sin He nips it in the butt….in LOVE which reminds me of the fruit of the spirit. There is tough love and I believe at some point you gotta get that way with people who do not want to follow God if you know them well…but you still love them anyway as a brother/sister warning them, and you serve for them when you can and forgive them like you should, it ain’t easy thats for sure. Listen I’m not a Bible thumper or some self-righteous think I know it all girl, I can’t shove anything down anyone’s throat. I made that clear too when it is one extreme to force and another not to say anything…but balance is key. I see what you are saying though…Who would respond to some so-called christian who burns people by the arrogant things they say…who would want to hear the living water message from them??? At first…we gotta be their friend and get to know them and carry this attitude out forever towards that person. As time goes by…we gotta talk about God getting deeper little by little. I also believe it depends on the situation of the person. There could be people who are oppressed because they choose to stay there. There are people who are locked down by things and have given up hope and settled for nothing. Both persons have to be willing to believe in God some day…if not then it’s sin…just like it is for me. I know Bud has a good head on his shoulders…I know he tries no matter what. But I am skeptical towards the fruit being not to produce disciples but something else…thats our mission though to make disciples little by little. If you are not getting others to God…how could you be producing peace patience kindness gentleness and self-control? I think of it this way…we have to love on people who are hard in their hearts and are just hurt…they hurt others too. I was once like that and someone reached out to me…Carol stringfellow. But if you are not trying to love someone this way what are you doing??? There is only one love…that is God and we must love the way he said to just like he loves us in Christ. Again at first when we meet people…we can mention God and we should a little, as time progresses as we get to know them…we gotta get deeper with them and try to see if they want to study. If not…then I will be praying for them and I will still show them love. For people who are suffering social injustice…when we christians try to help in the heat of the moment there is no other option but to go about it God’s way…there is no time for guessing. When we help people like this we as christians have to guide them in the right direction and fight the oppressor who is satan using people to get what he wants. We could die tomorrow and it would be a shame if we did not mention God. And when we help people who refute God…we still gotta feed them and clothe them and love them, regardless. However, it really is a shame when thats all you can do because the person does not want to be helped eternally. Oh so I’m just gonna feed you and clothe which I have no problem doing…but what about God who is so much more important??? Is that all this is about feeding your tummy and clothing you??? If thats what the person wants then hey so be it. I will clothe and feed like I should but it is now limited because they are not getting the help they really need. Jen I do appreciate how you are not one who forces but is into grace. Great insight on that aspect
Just to let you all know…I am not debating it’s just a discussion. So if I sound harsh in my comments…I’m not and sorry if i made you feel that way. I just strive to do what is right and the way I speak is very blunt but I am not being harsh.
Melinda, you are not being harsh. It is ok to discuss and give your input. I know some would have you just agree with them as they always think they can be the only one that counts. But don’t listen to that. You have every right to speak and have good insite. Love ya!
Love you too Papa Lynn
I haven’t read all the discussion, so forgive me if this has been said.
I don’t think we should expect anything from people we help – I just think WE should do more than simply trying to meet physical needs. We ought to do our best to meet spiritual needs in ADDITION to physical (not in place of physical), and I feel like that’s what’s being neglected a lot of the time.
I’m taking a group downtown to feed the homeless this Friday in San Francisco if anyone wants to fly over and join … and we’ll be praying with people and telling them about Jesus in the process.
Good point Wes
Reminds me of Lynn Stringfellow & #8217;s post on Social Justice.